Post: What is reality?
Options
06-11-2012, 06:58 PM
#1
Jakes625
Guest
anyway...
From research on some drugs, and philosophers I developed this idea. What if reality as we know it isn't even "real" per say. The entire universe is made up of chemicals, and reactions. Only pieces of elements, and matter. Energy. How did it become so complex that conciousness was created. How are things able to store, plan, and think out tasks just from elements, matter, and energy. There are so many things in the universe still unknown. But is that because our concious cannot create the idea. The thought of an idea never being original. Always copying off of someone elses. What if no one in the universe existed, and it was something all planned out by your brain. What is physical feeling.. touch, smell, taste, sight, and hearing. How are we able to conclude what these feelings mean, how does it tie in all so well? It's so complex that it seems impossible. I came up with the idea of inner beings. What if everything to the physical world was non existant, and a matter of imagination. Is our ideas and processes connected to our subconcious? Is our subconcious connected to something deeper in the universe and everyone is all tied to it? Do we even control our bodies, or are we assigned too? Just the thought of "time" being real is crazy. Have you ever had the feeling that time stops, or that you can hear time ticking? After all man did create time. I believe everything is controlled by minds, and it's all a matter of a "network" of minds. Everything created doesn't really exists. nothing does, it's just a form of information being transferred... no matter, no energy, but a different form of "substance".
If you have ever taken a "spiritual drug" then you might get where I'm coming from otherwise you are just brushing this off. But do you really have proof? the answer is no, you don't. I think we should study on the matter that makes up "living" and how things are really created. After all I could probably be talking on a forum created by my conciousness to make everything seem normal.
give your input I'd really like to see what you have to say.
FYI: Please don't make this a flame thread. thanks
The following 3 users say thank you to Jakes625 for this useful post:
06-12-2012, 08:13 PM
#11
Epic?
Awe-Inspiring
First of all, time was not created by man. Time has always existed. Time is actually part of the much larger "spacetime", which is the combination of space and time into a single mathematical model. In effect, time and space are very much related. For example, as you move faster, time literally slows down. Measurements of time were created by predecessors of humans. More accurate measurements of time are newer inventions. Regardless, just because something has not always been measured does not mean it did not exist.
Math was, to some degree, created by man. The concepts of addition and subtraction, the existence of mathematical functions, and such have always existed. Humans had simply yet to discover and intuit these concepts. Mathematical facts aren't generated by man, but rather discovered by man - they have always existed, they just weren't known. The system we use for mathematics was indeed created by man, the glyphs and the rules that we must abide by are created by man, but say, infinity, has always existed. So has the concepts of trigonometry or hyperbolic space. We just had yet to create a system that could handle such concepts.
While you may believe the universe has been planned out by your mind, and that all actions that have been and ever will be were created by your "consciousness", and we're not truly living in "reality" but rather in a generated world spawned by our consciousnesses, you have no scientific evidence to suggest that. Have you ever heard of Occam's razor? It's the law of parsimony and succinctness, it states that from competing hypotheses, one should select the hypothesis that makes the fewest and most minimal assumptions. You're making a huge assumption that everything we have ever known is wrong. Additionally, you provide no evidence in favor of your theory. Based on that, I'm going to side with science.
Math was, to some degree, created by man. The concepts of addition and subtraction, the existence of mathematical functions, and such have always existed. Humans had simply yet to discover and intuit these concepts. Mathematical facts aren't generated by man, but rather discovered by man - they have always existed, they just weren't known. The system we use for mathematics was indeed created by man, the glyphs and the rules that we must abide by are created by man, but say, infinity, has always existed. So has the concepts of trigonometry or hyperbolic space. We just had yet to create a system that could handle such concepts.
While you may believe the universe has been planned out by your mind, and that all actions that have been and ever will be were created by your "consciousness", and we're not truly living in "reality" but rather in a generated world spawned by our consciousnesses, you have no scientific evidence to suggest that. Have you ever heard of Occam's razor? It's the law of parsimony and succinctness, it states that from competing hypotheses, one should select the hypothesis that makes the fewest and most minimal assumptions. You're making a huge assumption that everything we have ever known is wrong. Additionally, you provide no evidence in favor of your theory. Based on that, I'm going to side with science.
The following user thanked Epic? for this useful post:
06-12-2012, 10:47 PM
#12
Just4Hax
"I will speak ill of
Originally posted by SatanicAmerican
I know all of those things stated above, I am not retarded. But you have to look outside the box It's one side of the story.
How do you know there is another side? Reality would imply only one fact being correct.
Originally posted by another user
I mean how are things living. Yes we know there are receptors, but what energy, and makeup cause us to have feelings?
Our nervous system and brain.
Originally posted by another user
We do not fully understand that yet.
So why jump to a conclusion that has never even been seen before?
Originally posted by another user
Yes we know where they are and how they function, but not how they are created, and how it's fully interpreted.
True, it will most likely take some more time to fully decipher the brain in every manner. Once again though, going off in a random direction isn't the right response.
Originally posted by another user
1. Time was created by man... just like math was. sure things moving on was already there, but we didn't have a way of measuring it 
Yes and no. We created our own units and formulas, but before that time still acted in the exact same way it does now. Just because I didn't know my house was on fire didn't mean it wasn't burning.
Originally posted by another user
2. No idea is original.. even newton, einstein, etc. I didn't say it had to come from a person. It could come from an object. etc.
So then semantics? Your basically saying original means the beginning source of inspiration. In the very least, it's an original way of thinking
Originally posted by another user
3. Some of what I said I wasn't being literal. Of course time doesn't make sound, but that doesn't mean you can feel like it.
Time moves only forward, so it would be natural to notice things changing.
Originally posted by another user
I'm saying there is more than just black and white.
??? How does the universe seem black and white?
Originally posted by another user
I didn't say I had any proof either, this is a what if thread.. It's supposed to make you think.
What if an octopus with eagles wings is attacking the moon at this moment.
Originally posted by another user
Because the truth is we really don't know. We measured all the data with things humans have created.
No? Newton theorized mathematical formulas that some up universal motion all with a crappy telescope (that he didn't use in his theorems.)
Originally posted by another user
How is that proof, for all we know what we created could be wrong. I mean our math isn't even perfect, there are flaws in everything, yet the universe seems to have it all worked out.
??? The theory for gravity has yet to been shown wrong, as Einstein's theories. If you wanted to make an argument you would need to make a quantum mechanics argument, which we already have some theorems for, we are simply missing the connection between the insanely tiny particles and planets.
Originally posted by another user
Also this had no relation to anything religious, from one of your posts you said something along the lines of "what, that makes it sound like you are god". No I did not mean for it to turn out like that. I mean something beyond our control could be controlling us, whether it be a person, sound, material, energy, matter.. etc.
Don't understand what your saying, aside from brainwash.
Originally posted by another user
Yes all the things you described is reality as we know it, but I'm trying to get people to think about reality as we don't know it. The unknown... It's like dark matter there is still so much to uncover about it.
Then why not approach it from the literal standpoint? There is soooo much out there still. We've seen a fraction of the universe. We're still attempting to unite quantum mechanics with newtonian physics. We're still breaking down nervous systems, diseases, and disorders. We're still learning more and more about how our universe operates. I mean the universe is a gorgeous place. Isn't it incredible we have math equations that describe what's to come, the probability of events (quantum mechanics), and the movement of planets and stars.
Originally posted by another user
I ask you to not take such a literal approach, and maybe you can enjoy this thread a little better
I just have trouble looking for something that appears to not only be hidden, but is called mysterious when the universe still has much to be uncovered.
Originally posted by another user
btw: don't start to sound like such a prick. I don't want this to be a flame war, and you're kind of sparking it. Maybe I'm a little self concious but don't take a "are you retarded?" approach. Thanks just4.
I won't take one.
The following 2 users say thank you to Just4Hax for this useful post:
06-13-2012, 03:58 AM
#13
Jakes625
Guest
lmfao just4hax.. just lmfao
You are taking this wayyyyyyyy to literal. Seriously this is just supposed to be a... "what if reality we know it as is different" It supposed to make you think, and be for fun nothing more, nothing less.
also I completely lol'd when you didn't know what I meant by black and white. I mean the universe isn't as plain as you described it. (again you took a literal approach) :p
and lastly on my mind is math. Yes gravity is a law, which only does so after many (possibly thousands) of years of testing, etc. Even though it hasn't been proven wrong yet, it always could. How isn't their flaws? :p if you divide by zero the universe explodes :lol: jk on exploding (not literal ).
---------- Post added at 10:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:52 PM ----------
Time was created by man. Time is a measurement
I know the fact of things moving on through "spacetime" were already there. That's obvious. But how it's measured was created by man
Math was indeed created by man, there would be no flaws it math if it didn't. Again like time, it was already there but man developed a way of measuring it.
For your last paragraph, I don't actually believe in this. It's more of a "wouldn't it be cool if" and I image it, it's trippy kinda. Just pays to think outside the box a little. (yes I know I said believe but it was to get more people into this)
Now I'm pretty much done replying at this is a joke to everyone :/
You are taking this wayyyyyyyy to literal. Seriously this is just supposed to be a... "what if reality we know it as is different" It supposed to make you think, and be for fun nothing more, nothing less.
also I completely lol'd when you didn't know what I meant by black and white. I mean the universe isn't as plain as you described it. (again you took a literal approach) :p
and lastly on my mind is math. Yes gravity is a law, which only does so after many (possibly thousands) of years of testing, etc. Even though it hasn't been proven wrong yet, it always could. How isn't their flaws? :p if you divide by zero the universe explodes :lol: jk on exploding (not literal
).---------- Post added at 10:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:52 PM ----------
Originally posted by Epic
First of all, time was not created by man. Time has always existed. Time is actually part of the much larger "spacetime", which is the combination of space and time into a single mathematical model. In effect, time and space are very much related. For example, as you move faster, time literally slows down. Measurements of time were created by predecessors of humans. More accurate measurements of time are newer inventions. Regardless, just because something has not always been measured does not mean it did not exist.
Math was, to some degree, created by man. The concepts of addition and subtraction, the existence of mathematical functions, and such have always existed. Humans had simply yet to discover and intuit these concepts. Mathematical facts aren't generated by man, but rather discovered by man - they have always existed, they just weren't known. The system we use for mathematics was indeed created by man, the glyphs and the rules that we must abide by are created by man, but say, infinity, has always existed. So has the concepts of trigonometry or hyperbolic space. We just had yet to create a system that could handle such concepts.
While you may believe the universe has been planned out by your mind, and that all actions that have been and ever will be were created by your "consciousness", and we're not truly living in "reality" but rather in a generated world spawned by our consciousnesses, you have no scientific evidence to suggest that. Have you ever heard of Occam's razor? It's the law of parsimony and succinctness, it states that from competing hypotheses, one should select the hypothesis that makes the fewest and most minimal assumptions. You're making a huge assumption that everything we have ever known is wrong. Additionally, you provide no evidence in favor of your theory. Based on that, I'm going to side with science.
Math was, to some degree, created by man. The concepts of addition and subtraction, the existence of mathematical functions, and such have always existed. Humans had simply yet to discover and intuit these concepts. Mathematical facts aren't generated by man, but rather discovered by man - they have always existed, they just weren't known. The system we use for mathematics was indeed created by man, the glyphs and the rules that we must abide by are created by man, but say, infinity, has always existed. So has the concepts of trigonometry or hyperbolic space. We just had yet to create a system that could handle such concepts.
While you may believe the universe has been planned out by your mind, and that all actions that have been and ever will be were created by your "consciousness", and we're not truly living in "reality" but rather in a generated world spawned by our consciousnesses, you have no scientific evidence to suggest that. Have you ever heard of Occam's razor? It's the law of parsimony and succinctness, it states that from competing hypotheses, one should select the hypothesis that makes the fewest and most minimal assumptions. You're making a huge assumption that everything we have ever known is wrong. Additionally, you provide no evidence in favor of your theory. Based on that, I'm going to side with science.
Time was created by man. Time is a measurement
I know the fact of things moving on through "spacetime" were already there. That's obvious. But how it's measured was created by man
Math was indeed created by man, there would be no flaws it math if it didn't. Again like time, it was already there but man developed a way of measuring it.
For your last paragraph, I don't actually believe in this. It's more of a "wouldn't it be cool if" and I image it, it's trippy kinda. Just pays to think outside the box a little. (yes I know I said believe but it was to get more people into this)
Now I'm pretty much done replying at this is a joke to everyone :/
The following user thanked Jakes625 for this useful post:
The following 3 users groaned at Jakes625 for this awful post:
06-13-2012, 05:28 AM
#14
Epic?
Awe-Inspiring
Originally posted by SatanicAmerican
lmfao just4hax.. just lmfao
You are taking this wayyyyyyyy to literal. Seriously this is just supposed to be a... "what if reality we know it as is different" It supposed to make you think, and be for fun nothing more, nothing less.
also I completely lol'd when you didn't know what I meant by black and white. I mean the universe isn't as plain as you described it. (again you took a literal approach) :p
and lastly on my mind is math. Yes gravity is a law, which only does so after many (possibly thousands) of years of testing, etc. Even though it hasn't been proven wrong yet, it always could. How isn't their flaws? :p if you divide by zero the universe explodes :lol: jk on exploding (not literal ).
---------- Post added at 10:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:52 PM ----------
Time was created by man. Time is a measurement
I know the fact of things moving on through "spacetime" were already there. That's obvious. But how it's measured was created by man
Math was indeed created by man, there would be no flaws it math if it didn't. Again like time, it was already there but man developed a way of measuring it.
For your last paragraph, I don't actually believe in this. It's more of a "wouldn't it be cool if" and I image it, it's trippy kinda. Just pays to think outside the box a little. (yes I know I said believe but it was to get more people into this)
Now I'm pretty much done replying at this is a joke to everyone :/
You are taking this wayyyyyyyy to literal. Seriously this is just supposed to be a... "what if reality we know it as is different" It supposed to make you think, and be for fun nothing more, nothing less.
also I completely lol'd when you didn't know what I meant by black and white. I mean the universe isn't as plain as you described it. (again you took a literal approach) :p
and lastly on my mind is math. Yes gravity is a law, which only does so after many (possibly thousands) of years of testing, etc. Even though it hasn't been proven wrong yet, it always could. How isn't their flaws? :p if you divide by zero the universe explodes :lol: jk on exploding (not literal
).---------- Post added at 10:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:52 PM ----------
Time was created by man. Time is a measurement
I know the fact of things moving on through "spacetime" were already there. That's obvious. But how it's measured was created by man
Math was indeed created by man, there would be no flaws it math if it didn't. Again like time, it was already there but man developed a way of measuring it.
For your last paragraph, I don't actually believe in this. It's more of a "wouldn't it be cool if" and I image it, it's trippy kinda. Just pays to think outside the box a little. (yes I know I said believe but it was to get more people into this)
Now I'm pretty much done replying at this is a joke to everyone :/
The ridiculousness of your post shocks the conscious. You might believe you're debating against us, but really you're just blindly disputing facts - proven facts.
Time was not created by man! Time is not a measurement! Time is a dimension, it is indefinite, continued progression. Humans, and predecessors to humans, have been measuring time. Just like how humans can measure the temperature of water without humans having invented water temperature, humans measure time, without having invented or created time - frankly, time has been going on apparently infinitely long before human existence, and will continue infinitely long afterwards.
Mathematics was not created by man either! What you may consider mathematics was created by man. We create mathematical systems or branches, such as algebra or calculus. These consist of known glyphs, operations, and rules. All core mathematical concepts already existed, we just had yet to discover them and create a system capable of manipulating them. An example of this is non-Euclidean geometry (here I'll focus on hyperbolic geometry). For years, it was believed that Euclid's parallel postulate was true. It was believed that say, hyperbolic space, could not exist. Yet, it had existed in reality forever, in fact, lettuce is an example of a hyperbolic plane. They were even breathing in hyperbolic space - lungs are a prime example. The parallel postulate was later proven to indeed not be an axiom (ironically, in an attempt to prove it was an axiom), and thus, the system we know as hyperbolic geometry is born - even though it had existed for all eternity.
If you don't understand, I'd recommend taking a few physics and mathematics classes.
Also, remember that we're not taking this as a joke. We're taking it very seriously. So seriously that we've taken the time to rip your "theory" to shreds. Also, remember that this is the Intelligent Discussion section. If you're not here to have an intelligent discussion (read: debate) on the topic you post, you shouldn't post here.
The following 3 users say thank you to Epic? for this useful post:
06-13-2012, 05:34 AM
#15
Pichu
PICHU.
PICHU.
Originally posted by Epic
The ridiculousness of your post shocks the conscious. You might believe you're debating against us, but really you're just blindly disputing facts - proven facts.
Time was not created by man! Time is not a measurement! Time is a dimension, it is indefinite, continued progression. Humans, and predecessors to humans, have been measuring time. Just like how humans can measure the temperature of water without humans having invented water temperature, humans measure time, without having invented or created time - frankly, time has been going on apparently infinitely long before human existence, and will continue infinitely long afterwards.
Mathematics was not created by man either! What you may consider mathematics was created by man. We create mathematical systems or branches, such as algebra or calculus. These consist of known glyphs, operations, and rules. All core mathematical concepts already existed, we just had yet to discover them and create a system capable of manipulating them. An example of this is non-Euclidean geometry (here I'll focus on hyperbolic geometry). For years, it was believed that Euclid's parallel postulate was true. It was believed that say, hyperbolic space, could not exist. Yet, it had existed in reality forever, in fact, lettuce is an example of a hyperbolic plane. They were even breathing in hyperbolic space - lungs are a prime example. The parallel postulate was later proven to indeed not be an axiom (ironically, in an attempt to prove it was an axiom), and thus, the system we know as hyperbolic geometry is born - even though it had existed for all eternity.
If you don't understand, I'd recommend taking a few physics and mathematics classes.
Also, remember that we're not taking this as a joke. We're taking it very seriously. So seriously that we've taken the time to rip your "theory" to shreds. Also, remember that this is the Intelligent Discussion section. If you're not here to have an intelligent discussion (read: debate) on the topic you post, you shouldn't post here.
Time was not created by man! Time is not a measurement! Time is a dimension, it is indefinite, continued progression. Humans, and predecessors to humans, have been measuring time. Just like how humans can measure the temperature of water without humans having invented water temperature, humans measure time, without having invented or created time - frankly, time has been going on apparently infinitely long before human existence, and will continue infinitely long afterwards.
Mathematics was not created by man either! What you may consider mathematics was created by man. We create mathematical systems or branches, such as algebra or calculus. These consist of known glyphs, operations, and rules. All core mathematical concepts already existed, we just had yet to discover them and create a system capable of manipulating them. An example of this is non-Euclidean geometry (here I'll focus on hyperbolic geometry). For years, it was believed that Euclid's parallel postulate was true. It was believed that say, hyperbolic space, could not exist. Yet, it had existed in reality forever, in fact, lettuce is an example of a hyperbolic plane. They were even breathing in hyperbolic space - lungs are a prime example. The parallel postulate was later proven to indeed not be an axiom (ironically, in an attempt to prove it was an axiom), and thus, the system we know as hyperbolic geometry is born - even though it had existed for all eternity.
If you don't understand, I'd recommend taking a few physics and mathematics classes.
Also, remember that we're not taking this as a joke. We're taking it very seriously. So seriously that we've taken the time to rip your "theory" to shreds. Also, remember that this is the Intelligent Discussion section. If you're not here to have an intelligent discussion (read: debate) on the topic you post, you shouldn't post here.
Taught me some stuff just now. Never had the chance to take any Physics classes, I took Anatomy instead so rather than being familiar with light and gravity, speeds and theories, I am more familiar with the human body.
Got me researching some stuff now.
The following user thanked Pichu for this useful post:
06-13-2012, 06:33 AM
#16
Jakes625
Guest
Originally posted by Epic
The ridiculousness of your post shocks the conscious. You might believe you're debating against us, but really you're just blindly disputing facts - proven facts.
Time was not created by man! Time is not a measurement! Time is a dimension, it is indefinite, continued progression. Humans, and predecessors to humans, have been measuring time. Just like how humans can measure the temperature of water without humans having invented water temperature, humans measure time, without having invented or created time - frankly, time has been going on apparently infinitely long before human existence, and will continue infinitely long afterwards.
Mathematics was not created by man either! What you may consider mathematics was created by man. We create mathematical systems or branches, such as algebra or calculus. These consist of known glyphs, operations, and rules. All core mathematical concepts already existed, we just had yet to discover them and create a system capable of manipulating them. An example of this is non-Euclidean geometry (here I'll focus on hyperbolic geometry). For years, it was believed that Euclid's parallel postulate was true. It was believed that say, hyperbolic space, could not exist. Yet, it had existed in reality forever, in fact, lettuce is an example of a hyperbolic plane. They were even breathing in hyperbolic space - lungs are a prime example. The parallel postulate was later proven to indeed not be an axiom (ironically, in an attempt to prove it was an axiom), and thus, the system we know as hyperbolic geometry is born - even though it had existed for all eternity.
If you don't understand, I'd recommend taking a few physics and mathematics classes.
Also, remember that we're not taking this as a joke. We're taking it very seriously. So seriously that we've taken the time to rip your "theory" to shreds. Also, remember that this is the Intelligent Discussion section. If you're not here to have an intelligent discussion (read: debate) on the topic you post, you shouldn't post here.
Time was not created by man! Time is not a measurement! Time is a dimension, it is indefinite, continued progression. Humans, and predecessors to humans, have been measuring time. Just like how humans can measure the temperature of water without humans having invented water temperature, humans measure time, without having invented or created time - frankly, time has been going on apparently infinitely long before human existence, and will continue infinitely long afterwards.
Mathematics was not created by man either! What you may consider mathematics was created by man. We create mathematical systems or branches, such as algebra or calculus. These consist of known glyphs, operations, and rules. All core mathematical concepts already existed, we just had yet to discover them and create a system capable of manipulating them. An example of this is non-Euclidean geometry (here I'll focus on hyperbolic geometry). For years, it was believed that Euclid's parallel postulate was true. It was believed that say, hyperbolic space, could not exist. Yet, it had existed in reality forever, in fact, lettuce is an example of a hyperbolic plane. They were even breathing in hyperbolic space - lungs are a prime example. The parallel postulate was later proven to indeed not be an axiom (ironically, in an attempt to prove it was an axiom), and thus, the system we know as hyperbolic geometry is born - even though it had existed for all eternity.
If you don't understand, I'd recommend taking a few physics and mathematics classes.
Also, remember that we're not taking this as a joke. We're taking it very seriously. So seriously that we've taken the time to rip your "theory" to shreds. Also, remember that this is the Intelligent Discussion section. If you're not here to have an intelligent discussion (read: debate) on the topic you post, you shouldn't post here.
This isn't an argument or a debate.
Infact it was just a question.
Please don't reply saying I'm ignorant... because I'm not. Your point has already been proven. Twice actually.
I am trying to tell you I am refering to time + math as a measurement. My idea is as follows:
Originally posted by david v
time is a reference humans have labeled an intangible cognitive idea. although the experience of time can be manipulated, time itself cannot, as it is always moving in one direction. sense time is infinite, it can be said that it has always and always will exist, but because it is merely a measurement, it can just as easily be said it does not. its like asking, how long has a meter existed? technically it's only existed since the roman times. but even empty space could be measured in meters at any given point in time.
This isn't even a "debate" so I don't know why others are arguing tbh. It is "intellectual discussion" not "debate forum". This is a "wouldn't it be cool if" it's just wondering. Some of the brightest thinkers in history have "just wondered". I don't appreciate the tone of you marking me such as a dunce. I have taken a majority of classes in mathematics, and physical science. I fully understand them too. I just like to think outside the box as It gives an interesting view on life, which takes me away from the boring, dull, and depressing one I live in. Maybe what I am implying is not if reality as we know it is difference in sense of the physical world, but more how we interpret it. In fact this is almost a kind of experiment to see how others react, and how society forces something into your brain. Think about it, nowadays creativity is limited. Everything is done by the book, and I accept that. It just makes you wonder a little :p. Now I'll admit I sounded childish before, granted that doesn't mean I am. Basically all I'm trying to say is this: "If the entire universe was completely turned upside down, how would you feel? would you be scared? would you think it's cool?" that's all I'm trying to get a cross. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, whether it be true or false, and to be honest I just like hearing peoples Ideas. I appreciated all the users who replied to the thread I truely do, I just wish people wouldn't get so worked up over their views.
I hope you have a good time replying to these forums, and I will take a more mature approach.
06-13-2012, 02:33 PM
#17
Winning
Former Staff
Take a look at Minecraft redstone. It's just on and off, that's all it is. But some amazing things can be created with just 1's and 0's. So if you take a look at chemicals, these things can have a ton of different properties and reactions with each other. It's hard for them not to be incredible, and do awesome and cool things on their own.
06-13-2012, 06:36 PM
#18
Jester Actual
Add me on Xbox
Copyright © 2026, NextGenUpdate.
All Rights Reserved.
