Post: Why Evolution?
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10-24-2011, 12:22 PM
#1
TornadoCreator
A Storm Approaches.
Naturally, I'm talking about the anti-evolution movement which is being mocked and ridiculed by everyone with at least a high school education. It's been bothering me for a while but I wanted to put it in text because really I'd love an answer to some questions from at least one Creationist (and I know NGU has at least a couple of crazies so don't be shy). My question is simply this...
Why Evolution?
Of all the scientific theories to decide your religion is incompatible with, why this one? It makes so little sense. There are literally thousands of scientific theories, some of them, particularly when it comes to areas like quantum physics, that have little supporting evidence, or are entirely theoretical, supported by mathematical models only as they're effectively untestable with current technology. So why pick Evolution, one of the most studied, most well understood, most important modern scientific theory of the last 200 years. Evolution is the basis behind agriculture, animal breading, all forms of medical research, and modern sanitation. Without understanding the mechanisms of Evolution, our species would still have life expectancies in the 40's.
Now, I've come to a conclusion, but I don't understand the reasoning.
Creationists are arguing against Evolution when they actively know Evolution is a fact. Why? I'm honestly not sure...
Creationist tend towards the following actions:
First they will describe Evolution in an incorrect manner or completely change the subject all together. Asking how life began or asking for "evolution" to explain why the planets formed. This is obviously stupid, that's like asking me to tell you how Gravity explains the flavour of cheddar cheese. Gravity has sod all to do with cheese, just as Evolution has sod all to do with the planets forming or the beginning of life. The thing is, every time a Creationist makes this argument we tell them what Evolution actually is, so they already know their error. We don't need to tell them again. They're ACTIVELY ignoring our arguments and making up completely fake ones because they already know the memorised retorts for them.
Secondly, when asked to explain Creationism, or Intelligent Design, whichever name you want to use, they will always resort to the same bullshit reasoning. Usually using the universal constants, of some version of irreducible complexity as a justification for believing in this shit. Again, these arguments where refuted years ago, I can even take you to 5 year old YouTube videos of people refuting them. Even more insulting is the false dichotomy given. The implication is that, either they're right or everything "randomly got that way", which is bullshit. Creationists know that Evolution is not a mechanism based on chance, we've told them time and time again.
Thirdly the Creationist will argue that our evidence is faulty, asking for the "missing link", even though there hasn't been a "missing link" in the human ancestry for over 2 decades. They'll try to argue that carbon dating is faulty, that archaeology is flawed, or even try to claim certain fossils are fake. Again, once a Creationist makes these arguments, the reasonable person arguing with said Creationist will naturally show them reams of evidence, which the Creationist insists on ignoring.
Lastly the Creationist will usually argue against "morality" which is basically insinuating that I am a raving monster ready to be set free. It's sick emotional pleading and a desperate attempt the scapegote this issue.
So... what the hell is it about Evolution that pisses off the Creationists so much? What possible reason do they have to purposely and continuously lie? I just don't understand... what possible benefit could Creationists have for a world filled by idiots, no medical research and no tech advancement? It just seems so counter-intuitive.
Anyone who can give me an answer, please do... oh and don't try to disprove Evolution, you're not good enough for that, any of you. So...
Why???
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12-10-2011, 02:39 PM
#56
Originally posted by TornadoCreator
I find it amazing, I find it interesting... mind-boggling? No, not at all.
If you actually understand evolution, which all the detractors clearly don't, you see that it makes elegant sense and it shows an interconnection between the natural biosphere of our planet way beyond anything our silly little myths had considered so far. The only thing evolution really does emotionally speaking, that I don't enjoy, is that it shows emphatically that nature is completely uncaring. There is no compassion, there is no emotion. It's all mechanics, with a great elegance, but with nothing else.
Every single animal with the exception of SOME humans and the rare few animals that we choose to keep as pets, live an unhappy, frightened, terrible life. Every single one of them. Because of the mechanisms of evolution, the way in which life chooses the "winners", we have every animal in direct competition. They're always hungry, they're always being hunted or fighting to the death, they're always struggling against pain and hardship because every time they evolve an advantage their competition or worse still their predator evolves right along side them to make it barely enough. Nature is entirely cruel and uncaring if you see it on an emotional level and that make evolution a hard thing to take. It also however proves to me, pretty conclusively, that anyone claiming there's a caring god is either blinded to reality or a total idiot.
If I take a step back, the mathematical beauty of evolution is one of the most interesting, self regulating and truly unique natural mechanisms in the world, capable of creating things beyond our imagination. It's an interesting and amazing feat of nature that explains things from the molecular level right up to the social level. The study of anthropology is one of the most genuinely interesting fields of modern science, and what is anthropology? it's the study of humanity, and it is almost entirely embedded in evolutionary theory.
In short, no, I can't understand why there are people who actively attack evolution. I can understand why some laypeople with a limited understanding of science would find evolution difficult to grasp, (which is no bad thing, I have a limited understanding of Russian Literature for example ie. none, we all have our own passions and no one person can know everything). The thing is, I'm not discussing people who simply don't understand the science who doubt the theory in there everyday life. I'm talking about the activists.
Why would people like Bill O'Reilly, Kirk Cameron, Ben Stein, Ray Comfort, Kent Hovind etc. openly oppose and argue against evolution. THEY KNOW THEY'RE WRONG! These aren't just random people either, and they're not stupid (debatable). Ben Stein has two degrees in Law and Economics, Bill O'Reilly has two degrees in History and Journalism. These are not stupid people, they can grasp basic concepts. All of these people have interviewed evolutionary biologists and had the basic principals of evolution explained to them. These same people have had the more common arguments like the 'Argument From Design', 'Blind Watchmaker Argument', the 'Crocoduck Argument', the 'Argument From Complexity', the 'Missing Link Argument', the constant misuse of the phrase "random chance" and more explained to them in depth by scientists so they know why these arguments are not reasonable. THEY KNOW THEY'RE WRONG, THEY'RE FÚCKING LIARS!
The thing I don't understand, and this was the point of the thread, is this; why argue against evolution? Why do they oppose it. They know it's right. It doesn't do them any good to argue against a scientific theory that has more support for it than entire FIELDS of science have. I just don't understand the political gain in convincing an entire generation of YOUR countries children that evolution doesn't work by "teaching the controversy", are they trying to destroy the pharmaceutical industry? It's not a religious thing either because 50 years ago most Christians would have happily have accepted evolution and the last two POPES! openly and publicly supported evolution.
I just don't get it. Why do so many Republican (and it is almost exclusively Republican) spokesmen, political commentators, and right wing public speakers and low end celebrities all speak out against an inconsequential scientific theory? Oh and do they always argue against evolution or only when it suits them, ie. are they OK with accepting antibiotics in hospital? Evolution bitches; it works. Just... why? Why do so many people actively and purposely LIE and claim they don't accept evolution to the point of repeating flawed arguments that they know have been addressed, claiming evolution states things they outright KNOW it doesn't, yet they continue to do it anyway? Why do they all insist on calling it "Darwinism" as though it's some kind of new religion when that word literally has NO MEANING! We're not fúcking "darwinists", and they know that. So come on... can someone please tell me why?
Why do people oppose evolution it doesn't make sense.
If you actually understand evolution, which all the detractors clearly don't, you see that it makes elegant sense and it shows an interconnection between the natural biosphere of our planet way beyond anything our silly little myths had considered so far. The only thing evolution really does emotionally speaking, that I don't enjoy, is that it shows emphatically that nature is completely uncaring. There is no compassion, there is no emotion. It's all mechanics, with a great elegance, but with nothing else.
Every single animal with the exception of SOME humans and the rare few animals that we choose to keep as pets, live an unhappy, frightened, terrible life. Every single one of them. Because of the mechanisms of evolution, the way in which life chooses the "winners", we have every animal in direct competition. They're always hungry, they're always being hunted or fighting to the death, they're always struggling against pain and hardship because every time they evolve an advantage their competition or worse still their predator evolves right along side them to make it barely enough. Nature is entirely cruel and uncaring if you see it on an emotional level and that make evolution a hard thing to take. It also however proves to me, pretty conclusively, that anyone claiming there's a caring god is either blinded to reality or a total idiot.
If I take a step back, the mathematical beauty of evolution is one of the most interesting, self regulating and truly unique natural mechanisms in the world, capable of creating things beyond our imagination. It's an interesting and amazing feat of nature that explains things from the molecular level right up to the social level. The study of anthropology is one of the most genuinely interesting fields of modern science, and what is anthropology? it's the study of humanity, and it is almost entirely embedded in evolutionary theory.
In short, no, I can't understand why there are people who actively attack evolution. I can understand why some laypeople with a limited understanding of science would find evolution difficult to grasp, (which is no bad thing, I have a limited understanding of Russian Literature for example ie. none, we all have our own passions and no one person can know everything). The thing is, I'm not discussing people who simply don't understand the science who doubt the theory in there everyday life. I'm talking about the activists.
Why would people like Bill O'Reilly, Kirk Cameron, Ben Stein, Ray Comfort, Kent Hovind etc. openly oppose and argue against evolution. THEY KNOW THEY'RE WRONG! These aren't just random people either, and they're not stupid (debatable). Ben Stein has two degrees in Law and Economics, Bill O'Reilly has two degrees in History and Journalism. These are not stupid people, they can grasp basic concepts. All of these people have interviewed evolutionary biologists and had the basic principals of evolution explained to them. These same people have had the more common arguments like the 'Argument From Design', 'Blind Watchmaker Argument', the 'Crocoduck Argument', the 'Argument From Complexity', the 'Missing Link Argument', the constant misuse of the phrase "random chance" and more explained to them in depth by scientists so they know why these arguments are not reasonable. THEY KNOW THEY'RE WRONG, THEY'RE FÚCKING LIARS!
The thing I don't understand, and this was the point of the thread, is this; why argue against evolution? Why do they oppose it. They know it's right. It doesn't do them any good to argue against a scientific theory that has more support for it than entire FIELDS of science have. I just don't understand the political gain in convincing an entire generation of YOUR countries children that evolution doesn't work by "teaching the controversy", are they trying to destroy the pharmaceutical industry? It's not a religious thing either because 50 years ago most Christians would have happily have accepted evolution and the last two POPES! openly and publicly supported evolution.
I just don't get it. Why do so many Republican (and it is almost exclusively Republican) spokesmen, political commentators, and right wing public speakers and low end celebrities all speak out against an inconsequential scientific theory? Oh and do they always argue against evolution or only when it suits them, ie. are they OK with accepting antibiotics in hospital? Evolution bitches; it works. Just... why? Why do so many people actively and purposely LIE and claim they don't accept evolution to the point of repeating flawed arguments that they know have been addressed, claiming evolution states things they outright KNOW it doesn't, yet they continue to do it anyway? Why do they all insist on calling it "Darwinism" as though it's some kind of new religion when that word literally has NO MEANING! We're not fúcking "darwinists", and they know that. So come on... can someone please tell me why?
Why do people oppose evolution it doesn't make sense.
I'm pretty sure Bill O'Reilly and his moron buddies at Fox do it for political reasons, I doubt they're actually as stupid as their viewers who believe the crap Fox "News" comes out with.
I wouldn't know about the others, but let me leave you with something moderately amusing, or outright sickening, depending on your mood(wait until he mentions the sun going up and down... oh my...):
(I'm hoping that's the right interview)
12-10-2011, 04:27 PM
#57
TornadoCreator
A Storm Approaches.
Originally posted by Clutch
I'm pretty sure Bill O'Reilly and his moron buddies at Fox do it for political reasons, I doubt they're actually as stupid as their viewers who believe the crap Fox "News" comes out with.
I wouldn't know about the others, but let me leave you with something moderately amusing, or outright sickening, depending on your mood(wait until he mentions the sun going up and down... oh my...):
(I'm hoping that's the right interview)
I wouldn't know about the others, but let me leave you with something moderately amusing, or outright sickening, depending on your mood(wait until he mentions the sun going up and down... oh my...):
(I'm hoping that's the right interview)
Oh yeah, I get that it's "political reasons" but why? Why would a political group all get together and decide, "You know what, why don't we act like morons and pretend that this area of science largely responsible for all of modern medicine and forensics is all bullshit and preach that to all the laypeople. We can have a whole generation of people who don't understand science, political opposition in our health and justice system that will cost tax dollars, and an America that actively stops innovation in these areas because they refuse to accept the reality of how it works. Wouldn't that be great?"
If anyone could explain what the benefits are for these people all deciding to argue against evolution by all means, now sure, one or two people may do it for money but remember that 10 years ago the anti-evolution movement barely existed, it was these people who popularised it... why would they do that?
12-10-2011, 05:17 PM
#58
Originally posted by TornadoCreator
Oh yeah, I get that it's "political reasons" but why? Why would a political group all get together and decide, "You know what, why don't we act like morons and pretend that this area of science largely responsible for all of modern medicine and forensics is all bullshit and preach that to all the laypeople. We can have a whole generation of people who don't understand science, political opposition in our health and justice system that will cost tax dollars, and an America that actively stops innovation in these areas because they refuse to accept the reality of how it works. Wouldn't that be great?"
If anyone could explain what the benefits are for these people all deciding to argue against evolution by all means, now sure, one or two people may do it for money but remember that 10 years ago the anti-evolution movement barely existed, it was these people who popularised it... why would they do that?
If anyone could explain what the benefits are for these people all deciding to argue against evolution by all means, now sure, one or two people may do it for money but remember that 10 years ago the anti-evolution movement barely existed, it was these people who popularised it... why would they do that?
Maybe ignorant people are the easiest to garner votes from?
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