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Wheel angles are a product of the gt6 suspension geometry

In real life the wheel angles are to keep proper contact as the suspension travels and the angles in real life vary as the suspension geometry varies from car to car, but in GT6 its a generic suspension geometry with a varying amount of leverage factor to simulate the geometry of the real car, and so the geometry is the same, the same angles will keep the proper contact patch. Only differences in weight balnce and roll resistance will be reflective in differences in default settings.

And so this would suggest the angle we apply above stock GT6 settings is as if we are raising it from the stock real world setting taking into account the GT6 suspension geometry.

GT6 suspension geometry has a fixed amount of camber gain from car to car (for most cars use a generic -2deg camber gain both ways) to make tuning simple. IRL camber gain varies from car to car making it very complicated to tune 1200 cars as to tune each car the camber gain in the suspension geometry would need to be calculated or figured out, in GT6 all cars have 2 + and 2- camber gain to make it a much simpler task, and so the wheel angles accommodate the simplified geometry. It makes a lot of sense why they did this, although the fact they dont say its what they done actually makes it confusing instead.

I had noticed that downforce settings affected the spring rates required to maintain handling balance at higher speeds so your data confirms what I already believed. This adds a whole new dimension to suspension tuning requirements vs older versions of GT as you must compensate for changes in downforce settings when setting spring rates. People not taking that into consideration are definitely going to be confused when they start making changes and their handling goes to shit. This is most likely another reason the idiots you encounter think there is something wrong with the game when in reality they are just too stupid to know that this is a REAL issue when tuning suspension in the real world. Again, most of the arguments you get into are a result of other people not having a clue about real world vehicle dynamics.

I can tell you that I am highly trained in vehicle repair and have a very good understanding of vehicle design and dynamics, but my lack of experience in tuning suspensions sometimes makes it a challenge for me to get a car to handle right in the game. The difference, however, is that I am smart enough to know that the issue lies within my lack of experience/knowledge and not with the physics of the game. I also enjoy the challenge and experimenting with settings rather than getting frustrated and blaming it on the game developers.

The issue with published curb weights is that different manufacturers use different methods to measure curb weight. This is another reason why there may be some discrepancies between published curb weights and those listed in the game. The largest varying factor is how much fuel is in the vehicle when measuring curb weight in real life as not all manufacturers measure curb weight with a full tank of gas. Varying options also affect curb weight and most published curb weights are representative of the vehicle equipped with the "usual" options. Yet again, this is just another instance of skeptics being ignorant of the facts.

I could write volumes explaining the reasons for minor variations between real world cars and their counterparts in the game. I could also go on for days discussing how the game is a marvel for getting things so close to real life given the limitations of the console. But, in the end I would just be summing up exactly what you are already saying. Just to set the record straight, the main purpose of me chiming in was/is to support your theories and test results being someone that has far more technical training and knowledge of automobiles than just about anybody you will encounter in a typical gaming forum. I feel that I can add to conversations like this because of my background with automobiles and do so with the intentions of enlightening those that lack such knowledge and have a desire to learn. As far as being a gamer, hacker, or anything else of the sort I am definitely one of little knowledge and don't claim otherwise. Originally, I only joined this forum to utilize the resources pertaining to GT5 and then GT6. I began to participate in certain conversations that I wished to add to or had questions about and don't actively participate in any other gaming forums.

BTW,
You can feel free to quote me on any other sites as I could give two shits what the morons you have encountered think about what I have to say.

Thanks for the support, always appreciate it. Its funny how GTP opinions are so important and collective opinion seems to trump proven fact. It's probably why most mechanics and actual racers / ex racers end up getting banned, I find the mechanical minded value proven fact and are a bit harsh to the opinion oriented. Half the time when they thin they are proving something, the only thing then end up proving is how little they really know and how full of shit they are.

Dipshits will argue about something like camber thrust playing no role in tuning a car because they read about car alignments expressing how important it is to have equal angles on the left and right. I had a GTP moron tell me all the camber we set in GT6 is positive because there is no (-) next to the adjusted value, I had a laugh pointing out its written right next to "Camber" a clear "(-)" lol even telling me cars have no caster angles at all in GT6 because we cant adjust it (what?) its pretty clear every time the steering wheel is turned the cars have a caster angle lol (and now I can see the angle on some cars ) or how they talk about how much grip they are adding stiffening up the ARB's again (what?) its like they dont know when they are adding grip or removing it.

I figure Im trying to provide a source of well tested info, no crazy theories with nothing to back them up, I test my theories to death and its nice looking directly at the core data that makes up the suspensions to be able to confirm many of my theories. Im also glad my tuners algorithms are all sound lol.

I swear, some of the things you mention truly make me laugh. Positive camber is almost never used on vehicles anymore and most certainly won't be found on any type of vehicle being raced. Positive camber negatively impacts handling and only serves to slightly lower steering effort and slightly lowers the sharpness of steering response. Of course, if someone already knew that they wouldn't argue with you about the in-game settings lol. I thought that caster was visible in the game, but even if not you can still see that it is simulated simply by turning the wheels back and forth while the car is sitting still. From most viewing angles you can see the car rock slightly just as it would in the real world due to the change in wheel angle causing small variations in the height of each side of the car. Before discussing alignment any further it is important to note that all factory recommended alignment settings state an acceptable range because it is extremely difficult to hit an exact number along with a couple other reasons. And contrary to popular belief alignment settings aren't exactly the same from side to side either. Vehicles with independent rear suspensions will typically have the rear alignment settings identical from left to right. The front settings on the other hand will vary slightly from left to right mainly to compensate for road crown. In a perfect world the settings would indeed be identical from left to right. Of course, in this same fantasy world camber and toe would be zero since this would be ideal for tire wear.

Something that I noticed today and swear is something new to the 1.14 update is the pp ratings are affected by aero components now. The only component that I found to change pp was the flat floorpan upgrade oddly enough. I only tested it on the '09 GTR Spec V and the '12 GTR Black Edition, but both of them had the pp significantly increase when adding the flat floorpan. I'm confused as to why they have this change the pp, but downforce settings do not. Regardless, this is new to me.

Right on. Bro, the theory for some at GTP is that even though the values are in negative, they think the cars get positive camber as in the game is broken, and negative camber settings have a positive camber result but visually look like negative camber, if they had any real clue what cars driving around with positive camber angles like 3.5 or 2.5 would do to a cars handling OM-FUCKING-G the idea is so fucking stupid and if that's what they think is going on who the fuck cares what they think about tuning, Id say they know as much as a 5year old, but thats putting down some talented youth out there who probably know more..

Flat Floors are a PP killer. The grip is benificial but they take close to 24pp and remove a chunk of top end speed the trade off is most often not worth it, the pp can go to power or weight with much more success. I hope this is improved as far as the cost to pp goes I do like using it on like a Street car built to DTM style where I add flat floors as a must, and the added grip is really well put to use on those street cars turned racers, but not so much on the street car style racers.

Real World

0-100km/h - 5.6
0-200km/h - 17.4
0-300km/h - 55.0

Top Speed 316km/h

Gran Turismo 6

0-100km - 5.337
0-200km - 16.029
0-300km - 56.620

Top Speed 308km/h

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Now this is a prime example of how GTP gets to the bottom of something.

Now the FiTT guys are diving into camber to do some testing so they can come up with a verdict of if camber works or not. Now this band a merry tuners known as the FiTT Tuners are lead by the Motor City Hammi, a particular shade of Dipshit. This guy is one of the most vocal on the Camber is broken, zero camber has more grip and he justifies those who cut faster laps with camber as the camber was used as a means of removing grip for gains. His reasoning behind his theories are as stupid as his theories and none of them tested properly. Now we have the FiTT guys with a poorly set up test being run by DolHaus who I would say has good intentions, but his lack of real world experience has him set up a test that has good intentions, but is poorly set up none the less. He fixed the set up on the car except camber, and the set up on the car is not all that good, it looks as though it was tuned as well as it could be with zero camber & next to nothing toe so compromises all over the rest of the set up have been made, Im glad the replays are time stamped so I can show just how much quicker I was on day one. However, another poor aspect to the test is that its a hot lap test. Camber shows its benefits over the life of the tires, extending life when set up right and costing tire life when set up incorrectly. It's probably why nobody wants to test the Ascari 2:09.000 Aventador Lap I pull on SM tires tht rides the tires out equal front to rear & will need gas before it needs tires.

You see the problem with actually putting test data down is that there is data to look at. If Motor City F4G sand bangs the camber runs it can be visible in the replay, I think he might be worried about not being able to top camber laps without using camber, its become not even about camber but about reputation. This guy has stamped his verdict on camber being broken so hard and represents his opinion as fact without showing anything to back it up they are improperly tested bad theories, although he will swear he has tested it to death, he has zero test data to show, & any data he does show doen't show camber broken, but shows he doesn't know what the fuck hes talking about. They will sure share their interpretations of these mysterious test, just no actual data, or any data they claim is written data, Mr Motor City Fairy never keeps the actual replay file so that the data can be confirmed, no no no, nothing to show... That alone says one thing, BULLSHIT.

Now the opportunity for them to put down some data and prove their opinion, but WTF only one person is posting data, and his data shows he was able to get some benefits out of using camber even though the Test Car is tuned like ASS with the ARB aso stiff its almost like they are intentionally trying to make it hard for camber to show it worth.

Well a few days back when I saw they put up their test I figured I would run my own car same model at the same pp only tuned by myself. I ran 4 five lap sessions starting with a calculated base set up, and making a few small tweaks to it, and I ended up cutting a lap 0.6 faster than the fastest lap posted so far, and as I always do I put her back in the garage only after I pushed the lap time further down another 0.3 it wasn't even a spectacular lap, but clean and smooth. Its been about a week and the one guy posting data is catching up, BUT hes still not caught up yet. Ill push it a bit more so as he catches up, I keep a few tenths in front, still more in her.

Motor City Hammi, you must be a serious douche bag to talk so much shit about camber being broken saying anything above zero removes grip but never having the stones to put down any proper test data, and even the poorly set up test going on a GTP seems to have you pissing in your pants.

As far as Im concerned Motor City Hommo is nothing but a chump punk who likes to talk my name indirectly, refer to me without referring to me like a passive aggressive pussy. Ive had about enough of little pussies acting tough. If you have any stones between your legs race me shit stain, how about in a sim SCCA Spec Miata like you race IRL, we already got the formula, you have had it for long enough and should be well suited to a race that sims the racing you say you do. I will hand you your ass in your own car. You must be a scared little bitch. I cant imagine how much of a pussy you must have been your entire life, You cant even man up to a online internet video game challenge yet act as if your all game wanting to get a set up from me lol then flagging me to get banned. Yeah yeah, you want to fight, as as long as your friends are there to hold you back, you want them holding you back lmfao. To me your just another weakling pissed off your never going to be the Alpha Male.

Motor City Hommo How come your not adding lap data to the GTP camber test ass hole? All your camber zero times slower than the times already posted with camber?!?!?!?!? The GTP Times still havent even caught up with my day one times and its a week later....... Lets Go, Come on, now's your big chance to finally PROVE camber is broken if you say it is, how come your being so damn quiet on the subject when your the first to moan like a prostitute "ohhhh camber removes grip ohhhh fuck me yah" Yah dont like me because I see through you, and saw right through you from the start, thats why you cried to the mods like a little bitch to get me banned and flag me as soon as you can to get mods on my ass lol, I think its funny how much of a punk bitch you can be. You're like the loser kid in grade school who always stays inside arms reach of the teacher because he knows as soon as I get him for a second alone Im a swat him across the face with a push broom (true story) and smile as I get punished because it was worth it.

Fucking funniest is they say cambers broken, but cant say what the adjustment actually does and it certainly does something lol.... This is a red flag, its screams "BULLSHIT"

Its also pretty funny to watch these guys doing the test They don't post any screen of the motec data, just post 3 results they want, Lap Time, min cornering speed and peak g hit in the corner. Now if you didn't know any better you wouldn't spot the obvious problem with that. Its also a little tiny detail like this that reveals quite a bit to the guys like me. Who the fuck cares what your fucking G's spike to, the data your trying to look at is the average cornering g. There are spikes that render the peak figure useless and the average cornering G gives a marker for pulling more or less from, but you should already now this and its a small detail, but a HUGE red flashing light, these guys don't really know what they are doing at all......

I've kept my mouth shut. They are fucking up, showing they don't understand what they are talking about, and I will give them all the rope they need to hang the retard theory about camber removing grip working in reverse. Taking a bit long though, For some strange reason only one guy has posted any test data. Motor City Hommo hasn't said much and hasn't contributed any test run data. I got to tip my Hat To Thorin Caine and many of the FiTT guys who seem quite authentic when they say they want to get to the bottom of this camber thing. the only problem is they seem to buy into Motor City Hommo bullshit, because the guy is a really good bullshit salesman. You guys should also learn to like content you agree with, not just bullshit that sounds good that your buddy wrote, you guys often seem like hypocrites as you like post on both sides of debates as if your weighing in on what sounds better.

Gran Turismo 6 Vs Real Life Lap Attack

Ford Focus ST @ Streets of Willow

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Direct lap to lap cornering speeds comparison.

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What boggles my mind is some folk over at GTP tripping about a lap time comparison done with the same car and the same lap although the driver added performance,tuned the suspension and changed the tires after all his changes to the stock car he ran a full second faster and somehow some people are looking at how his changes to the stock car must of made the car handle closer to stock. What that what? I took the same car and drive it completely stock everything, and my lap is not only closer in cornering speeds but its also close in lap time. Where he is a full second faster Im trailing by 0.1.

Its pretty lame when people ignore stuff that compliments the game and only focus on any discrepancy & they completely blow them out of proportion always making a huge fuss over petty bullshit. I post this as a DIRECT response to anybody who wishes to look at that run with a altered car going a second faster as if it shows the car was tuned to be a better representation of the stock car they are mistaken. If you want the GT6 cars to handle as close to stock as they can in the GT6 world, leave them GT6 stock.



In my book thats as close as it get's in GT6 and thats pretty damn close

One benefit to getting a data dump is Ive been able to confirm my dual final drive gear theory for the Focus ST. It seems like everybody on th Planet though the Focus ST Transmission was broken and they blamed PD for bad programming blah blah blah until I came around with the info its using a Getrag MMT-6 and has a dual final drive gear.

In the real world the extra final drive gear is 2.950, I confirm PD uses a "ExtraFinalGearRatio" on the Focus ST, they have it at 2.995.

Howeverlooking at the "ExtraFinalGearRatio" section I see a few other cars that also use a dual final drive gear.

The X-Bow R has a red flag indicator its using a dual final drive gear. Im surprised nobody (even myself) has noticed

1) 3.357
2) 2.087
3) 1.469
4) 1.088
5) 1.097
6) 0.912

FDG) 4.000

ExtraFinalGearRatio) 3.090

The X-Bow switches over to the 3.090 Final gear for 5th & 6th like the Ford Focus, only the X-Bow is not extending 5th and 6th for economy but rather shortening 1st through 4th for more low end torque.