Post: The the Universe, its size, contents and more..
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01-23-2011, 11:04 PM
#1
iikCii
Banned
For example, think of the size. First look at your phone, ipod and anything small, then compare it to the size of your house, what about the the size of your city or the world. It makes it seem tiny, we can see how big our galaxy and our neighbours, we can see just how big that is. Now think our this group of galaxy's and think of it being the size of your phone compared to the world. Then think of that being your phone, it blows your mind, there has to be some other lifeforms out there, or planets almost identical to earth, the thoughts are endless. Tell me what you think
[EDIT] An interesting video I found
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_0UNes9jFg[/ame]
The following user thanked iikCii for this useful post:
01-29-2011, 02:09 AM
#47
lolwhut
Do a barrel roll!
Originally posted by elfmotat
Giving an example of probability does not prove that probability is an illusion. What do you mean by that anyway? That doesn't make sense. I also never made any sort of claim regarding impossibilities.
Wrong. Absolutely, 100% wrong. EVERYTHING is a case of probability. Elementary particles are governed entirely by probability. A single electron can be at a single location, 15 locations at once, or nowhere at all. You can determine the probability of it being in a given spot, at a given velocity, etc., but you can't give concrete details. Einstein was quoted as saying "God does not play dice" because he was so disturbed by this. Nonetheless, this IS the way the universe works. It has been experimentally verified tenfold.
These are the best non-mathematical videos I could find on the subject (Lectures from Richard Feynman):
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In addition to the information I posted above, I'll add some more. The wave function is a superposition of all possible states of a particle. You can determine the behavior of a particle based on these probabilities. This means that there is a (infinitesimally) small probability that, for example, one of the electrons in your body suddenly appears on mars. There's the well-known Heisenberg uncertainty principle which says that certain properties of particles cannot be simultaneously known, like position and velocity.
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Where x is position, p is momentum, and the h-looking symbol is Plank's constant (h) divided by 2 pi.
What this basically means is that an effect following a cause can only be predicted based on probabilities instead of concrete information. If there was a truly random coin that landed on heads 90% of the time and tails 10% of the time, you would expect to flip heads on your first go. If you indeed flipped heads, then you weren't predetermined to get heads because the event was completely probabilistic in nature. You COULD have flipped tails. The argument for determinism is that, given enough information about the starting conditions in the universe, you COULD in theory predict every possible event. Quantum uncertainty means that no event can be predicted with 100% accuracy.
Wrong. Absolutely, 100% wrong. EVERYTHING is a case of probability. Elementary particles are governed entirely by probability. A single electron can be at a single location, 15 locations at once, or nowhere at all. You can determine the probability of it being in a given spot, at a given velocity, etc., but you can't give concrete details. Einstein was quoted as saying "God does not play dice" because he was so disturbed by this. Nonetheless, this IS the way the universe works. It has been experimentally verified tenfold.
These are the best non-mathematical videos I could find on the subject (Lectures from Richard Feynman):
You must login or register to view this content.
In addition to the information I posted above, I'll add some more. The wave function is a superposition of all possible states of a particle. You can determine the behavior of a particle based on these probabilities. This means that there is a (infinitesimally) small probability that, for example, one of the electrons in your body suddenly appears on mars. There's the well-known Heisenberg uncertainty principle which says that certain properties of particles cannot be simultaneously known, like position and velocity.
You must login or register to view this content.
Where x is position, p is momentum, and the h-looking symbol is Plank's constant (h) divided by 2 pi.
What this basically means is that an effect following a cause can only be predicted based on probabilities instead of concrete information. If there was a truly random coin that landed on heads 90% of the time and tails 10% of the time, you would expect to flip heads on your first go. If you indeed flipped heads, then you weren't predetermined to get heads because the event was completely probabilistic in nature. You COULD have flipped tails. The argument for determinism is that, given enough information about the starting conditions in the universe, you COULD in theory predict every possible event. Quantum uncertainty means that no event can be predicted with 100% accuracy.
Hmm. I actually had learned about a lot of the science you discussed, but I had never really involved it in this philosophical issue. I actually kind of agree with you, because if you trace the causes of all events to the very beginning, the causes would be the within the basic particles which make up the universe. And according to current studies, these particles behave in a pattern that is based purely on probability. The only possible argument against it could only be formulated if more studies showed the causation or fixed laws/patterns of these events in the quantum level as well.
Though even this does not back free will, it just means that we cannot predict any event with 100% accuracy because of the random nature of activity at the quantum level. But if we trace the causation of events back to the beginning, we will see that rather than human will, the "root" of the causation of any events is the unpredictable activity at the quantum level.
01-29-2011, 02:33 AM
#48
elfmotat
Rᵤᵥ - ½gᵤᵥR ∝ Tᵤᵥ
Originally posted by lolwhut
Though even this does not back free will
Nor was it supposed to
. Just an argument against total determinism.
Originally posted by lolwhut
it just means that we cannot predict any event with 100% accuracy because of the random nature of activity at the quantum level. But if we trace the causation of events back to the beginning, we will see that rather than human will, the "root" of the causation of any events is the unpredictable activity at the quantum level.
Though at macroscopic scales the uncertainty of things is extremely small (the reason you don't see a baseball in 15 places at once), the butterfly effect will ultimately result in in very tiny events leading to clear, macroscopic effects.
01-29-2011, 03:09 AM
#49
lolwhut
Do a barrel roll!
Originally posted by elfmotat
Nor was it supposed to . Just an argument against total determinism.
Though at macroscopic scales the uncertainty of things is extremely small (the reason you don't see a baseball in 15 places at once), the butterfly effect will ultimately result in in very tiny events leading to clear, macroscopic effects.
. Just an argument against total determinism.Though at macroscopic scales the uncertainty of things is extremely small (the reason you don't see a baseball in 15 places at once), the butterfly effect will ultimately result in in very tiny events leading to clear, macroscopic effects.
Completely agree with you on this.
01-30-2011, 09:46 PM
#50
E0000B6FAF25838
Nikolai Reznov
Originally posted by cookies420
We are just going in circles. Supernatural is real wether you believe it or not.
There is absolutely no solid proof of the supernatural. People claim to have experiences, but that's it. None of these experiences have been recorded or verified by scientists or reputable sources.
Originally posted by another user
There are different types, my uncle saw the devil and never thinks or believes in religion but he saw him and he was so ugly it couldnt be decribed in words.
This could easily be described as a hallucination or a dream. If your uncle claims he doesn't believe in religion, someone may have said something that made him start to subconsciously fear the devil. If he was scared enough, his mind may have made him see the devil so he would believe in religion, to help lessen his fear of the devil.
Originally posted by another user
My cousin of same age (17) saw a white figure on his tv when he was alone and said he needed to be batised. Whenever his parents left he would appear on screen and one time he asked to see him and he got close and he got scared (not cuz he was ulgy but he looked so life like) he then got batised again and he never appeared again.
This could be the exact same thing. A subconscious thought or fear may have been picking at him, and his subconscious may have thought that being baptized again would help ease his fear or make him feel better, and so created hallucinations to scare him into getting baptized again. The mind is an amazing thing, this is easily within it's capabilities.
Originally posted by another user
My older cousin was going upstairs and heard such a loud noise, it sounded awful like all the dishes on the shelf feel and broke. When he got there they were normal. Name thing happened to my uncle.
Maybe if you step on a certain step at the right spot it makes a creaking noise that could be mistaken for breaking glass. Maybe your cousin thought he heard it, told your uncle, and then your uncle heard a noise and immediately suspected the same thing that happened to your cousin happened to him.
Originally posted by another user
Also my moms family is of 13 kids and we feel that angels are looking out for them. One time my uncle whn little was playing on the street and got hit by a car and did a backflip and landed on his feet perfectly, he was so scated he thought his pee was blood, my other uncle jumped off our house in mexico(its high) with a cape and an umbrella and hit the ground, he barely got hurt.
This is called luck. Just because you don't die doesn't mean angels are looking out for you. Soldiers are faced with danger on a regular basis, just because one doesn't die doesn't mean he was being watched by an angel. Why should it be any different for civilians?
Originally posted by another user
Even some sidekicks are legit, not the ones that advertise but the ones that lay low are the real ones i honestly scares the shit of me and dont deal with them. All of those things dont follow the universe but is part of the universe.
I don't think you have the right word. What do you mean by "sidekicks?"
Originally posted by another user
It is impossible for any species besides our own to be intelligent. Since the beginning of man we have been intelligent. We have the qualitys that no other species have
When is the beginning of man? Humans and primates evolved from the same "ancestor," obviously, that "ancestor" didn't have intelligence, or else primates would be on a level with us today. Meaning we have developed intelligence in the time between the "ancestors" and today. We gained it through evolution, why wouldn't it be possible for the same to happen with other species?
Originally posted by another user
If one man did genocide he wouldnt success in extinction. He may kill millions or billions of people but we will always have a good chunch of humans left. The universe wont allow such a thing to happen
Where in the universal laws does it say that humans can't go extinct? It's very possible and there's no evidence to support that it's not. Once again I say, it's unlikely, it's not easy, but it is definitely possible, there is nothing protecting us. Thinking that there is something that protects us is the sort of mindset that leads to wars and is just plain arrogant and ignorant.
01-30-2011, 10:18 PM
#52
E0000B6FAF25838
Nikolai Reznov
Originally posted by elfmotat
Giving an example of probability does not prove that probability is an illusion. What do you mean by that anyway? That doesn't make sense. I also never made any sort of claim regarding impossibilities.
Okay, thinking about it, I suppose I'm not really attacking probability, but I'm attacking randomness. I think what I meant at the time was that randomness is an illusion, and the example I gave was lacking a clear explanation to link it to my claim. Let me try to fix that.
When you roll a die, there is supposedly a 1 in 6 chance that you'll roll a 1. However, in rolling a die, there are sets of events that can affect the outcome of the roll. Shaking the die in a cupped hand, the starting position of the numbers on the die, how hard you throw the die, how much torque you apply when you actually roll the die, and how far the die is from the surface it is rolling on when it leaves your hand, are all just a few factors that could influence your dice roll. It is not random, the number that appears on the die is a result of all of the factors working together. It's not random. It's actually exact, except there is no way for us to predict the outcome of a roll because humans are inconsistent.
In case I didn't explain my meaning perfectly, I feel that this excerpt sums it up nicely:
Originally posted by another user
The result of a die roll is random in the sense of lacking predictability, not lacking cause. Exactly how dice are thrown determines how they will land according to the laws of classical mechanics. However, dice also can exhibit sensitive dependence on initial conditions, making it difficult to predict the outcome of a die roll even with good information about exactly how it is thrown.
To be fair the quote is from wikipedia and has no citation, but it's common sense, nothing that would require a source to make it valid.
Originally posted by another user
Wrong. Absolutely, 100% wrong. EVERYTHING is a case of probability. Elementary particles are governed entirely by probability. A single electron can be at a single location, 15 locations at once, or nowhere at all. You can determine the probability of it being in a given spot, at a given velocity, etc., but you can't give concrete details.
Just because you can't calculate something doesn't make it random. Everything is affected by a massive number of factors. Not some great underlying determiner. Randomness is merely the culmination of all the factors acting on a specific event, and gives the illusion of that event having no calculable result. The truth is that we can't calculate the result because we can't account for every factor that is affecting an event.
Originally posted by another user
Einstein was quoted as saying "God does not play dice" because he was so disturbed by this. Nonetheless, this IS the way the universe works. It has been experimentally verified tenfold.
These are the best non-mathematical videos I could find on the subject (Lectures from Richard Feynman):
You must login or register to view this content.
These are the best non-mathematical videos I could find on the subject (Lectures from Richard Feynman):
You must login or register to view this content.
I currently don't have time to watch these videos, however when I have some more spare time I may watch them and give you my thoughts on them.
01-30-2011, 10:32 PM
#53
elfmotat
Rᵤᵥ - ½gᵤᵥR ∝ Tᵤᵥ
Originally posted by E0000B6FAF25838
Okay, thinking about it, I suppose I'm not really attacking probability, but I'm attacking randomness. I think what I meant at the time was that randomness is an illusion, and the example I gave was lacking a clear explanation to link it to my claim. Let me try to fix that.
When you roll a die, there is supposedly a 1 in 6 chance that you'll roll a 1. However, in rolling a die, there are sets of events that can affect the outcome of the roll. Shaking the die in a cupped hand, the starting position of the numbers on the die, how hard you throw the die, how much torque you apply when you actually roll the die, and how far the die is from the surface it is rolling on when it leaves your hand, are all just a few factors that could influence your dice roll. It is not random, the number that appears on the die is a result of all of the factors working together. It's not random. It's actually exact, except there is no way for us to predict the outcome of a roll because humans are inconsistent.
In case I didn't explain my meaning perfectly, I feel that this excerpt sums it up nicely:
To be fair the quote is from wikipedia and has no citation, but it's common sense, nothing that would require a source to make it valid.
When you roll a die, there is supposedly a 1 in 6 chance that you'll roll a 1. However, in rolling a die, there are sets of events that can affect the outcome of the roll. Shaking the die in a cupped hand, the starting position of the numbers on the die, how hard you throw the die, how much torque you apply when you actually roll the die, and how far the die is from the surface it is rolling on when it leaves your hand, are all just a few factors that could influence your dice roll. It is not random, the number that appears on the die is a result of all of the factors working together. It's not random. It's actually exact, except there is no way for us to predict the outcome of a roll because humans are inconsistent.
In case I didn't explain my meaning perfectly, I feel that this excerpt sums it up nicely:
To be fair the quote is from wikipedia and has no citation, but it's common sense, nothing that would require a source to make it valid.
I understand what you're saying: that seemingly random events the the roll of a die could actually be predicted given enough information about them. You're right - at macroscopic scales. At quantum scales, however, nature herself does not know which way things will turn out. It is truly a matter of probability.
Originally posted by E0000B6FAF25838
Just because you can't calculate something doesn't make it random. Everything is affected by a massive number of factors. Not some great underlying determiner. Randomness is merely the culmination of all the factors acting on a specific event, and gives the illusion of that event having no calculable result. The truth is that we can't calculate the result because we can't account for every factor that is affecting an event.
This is called the "hidden variable theory," that there is some missing piece of information that, if discovered, would be able to accurately predict things. It is wrong, however. Quantum events are truly probabilistic. There is no hidden variable. This is how nature works, and it has been experimentally verified to the point that there's really no debate about it. The fact that you don't want to accept it is irrelevant to its validity.
01-30-2011, 11:25 PM
#54
cookies420
BLUNTED
Originally posted by E0000B6FAF25838
There is absolutely no solid proof of the supernatural. People claim to have experiences, but that's it. None of these experiences have been recorded or verified by scientists or reputable sources.
This could easily be described as a hallucination or a dream. If your uncle claims he doesn't believe in religion, someone may have said something that made him start to subconsciously fear the devil. If he was scared enough, his mind may have made him see the devil so he would believe in religion, to help lessen his fear of the devil.
This could be the exact same thing. A subconscious thought or fear may have been picking at him, and his subconscious may have thought that being baptized again would help ease his fear or make him feel better, and so created hallucinations to scare him into getting baptized again. The mind is an amazing thing, this is easily within it's capabilities.
Maybe if you step on a certain step at the right spot it makes a creaking noise that could be mistaken for breaking glass. Maybe your cousin thought he heard it, told your uncle, and then your uncle heard a noise and immediately suspected the same thing that happened to your cousin happened to him.
This is called luck. Just because you don't die doesn't mean angels are looking out for you. Soldiers are faced with danger on a regular basis, just because one doesn't die doesn't mean he was being watched by an angel. Why should it be any different for civilians?
I don't think you have the right word. What do you mean by "sidekicks?"
When is the beginning of man? Humans and primates evolved from the same "ancestor," obviously, that "ancestor" didn't have intelligence, or else primates would be on a level with us today. Meaning we have developed intelligence in the time between the "ancestors" and today. We gained it through evolution, why wouldn't it be possible for the same to happen with other species?
Where in the universal laws does it say that humans can't go extinct? It's very possible and there's no evidence to support that it's not. Once again I say, it's unlikely, it's not easy, but it is definitely possible, there is nothing protecting us. Thinking that there is something that protects us is the sort of mindset that leads to wars and is just plain arrogant and ignorant.
This could easily be described as a hallucination or a dream. If your uncle claims he doesn't believe in religion, someone may have said something that made him start to subconsciously fear the devil. If he was scared enough, his mind may have made him see the devil so he would believe in religion, to help lessen his fear of the devil.
This could be the exact same thing. A subconscious thought or fear may have been picking at him, and his subconscious may have thought that being baptized again would help ease his fear or make him feel better, and so created hallucinations to scare him into getting baptized again. The mind is an amazing thing, this is easily within it's capabilities.
Maybe if you step on a certain step at the right spot it makes a creaking noise that could be mistaken for breaking glass. Maybe your cousin thought he heard it, told your uncle, and then your uncle heard a noise and immediately suspected the same thing that happened to your cousin happened to him.
This is called luck. Just because you don't die doesn't mean angels are looking out for you. Soldiers are faced with danger on a regular basis, just because one doesn't die doesn't mean he was being watched by an angel. Why should it be any different for civilians?
I don't think you have the right word. What do you mean by "sidekicks?"
When is the beginning of man? Humans and primates evolved from the same "ancestor," obviously, that "ancestor" didn't have intelligence, or else primates would be on a level with us today. Meaning we have developed intelligence in the time between the "ancestors" and today. We gained it through evolution, why wouldn't it be possible for the same to happen with other species?
Where in the universal laws does it say that humans can't go extinct? It's very possible and there's no evidence to support that it's not. Once again I say, it's unlikely, it's not easy, but it is definitely possible, there is nothing protecting us. Thinking that there is something that protects us is the sort of mindset that leads to wars and is just plain arrogant and ignorant.
My uncle was a ladies man, and always would have a girl with him, one night he was driving and saw a girl and she needed a ride, so he gave it to her, he kept talking and talking and she didnt say a word and he turned and he saw the devil, he was so scared and then he trurned again and she was gone. My family thinks the devil was teching him a lesson.
As for my cousin, how could that be a halluiation, theres no way that is a halluiation.
As for my cousin and uncle, we have an old house but its a good house and the steps do creak but we KNOW THE DIFFERENCE, he said it sounded like an EXPLOSIOVE of dishes as where you place the glass and dishes are on a shelf and theres alot and it sounded like they all fell. My cousin never told my uncle until my uncle said something
Theres an angel watching over them because it was a house of 13 kids and the parents were in the US. So many shit went down that my whole family is being watched. Mexico is the ground where I believe most the supernatural happens.
I mean sidekicks, and witchcraft , each are different yet the same
Human came from humans, WE DID NOT COME FROM MONKEYS. Anyone that thinks that needs to go back to the books.
Remember what I said that theres things that are in the universe but arent in the laws of it. That goes for humans going extinct. We can't and we wont, we are being protected somehow
Also for the supernatural there are many other FILMED instances where it does happen.
I believe in science and superstition because Im open minded and im not ignorant.
01-30-2011, 11:26 PM
#55
E0000B6FAF25838
Nikolai Reznov
Originally posted by elfmotat
I understand what you're saying: that seemingly random events the the roll of a die could actually be predicted given enough information about them. You're right - at macroscopic scales. At quantum scales, however, nature herself does not know which way things will turn out. It is truly a matter of probability.
This is called the "hidden variable theory," that there is some missing piece of information that, if discovered, would be able to accurately predict things. It is wrong, however. Quantum events are truly probabilistic. There is no hidden variable. This is how nature works, and it has been experimentally verified to the point that there's really no debate about it. The fact that you don't want to accept it is irrelevant to its validity.
This is called the "hidden variable theory," that there is some missing piece of information that, if discovered, would be able to accurately predict things. It is wrong, however. Quantum events are truly probabilistic. There is no hidden variable. This is how nature works, and it has been experimentally verified to the point that there's really no debate about it. The fact that you don't want to accept it is irrelevant to its validity.
Fair enough, as I don't know jack about quantum mechanics, however, wouldn't that mean that your previous statement,
"Wrong. Absolutely, 100% wrong. EVERYTHING is a case of probability,"
would be incorrect? While it may be true that events on a quantum scale are governed by probability, events on a macroscopic scale are not. Meaning that not EVERYTHING is a case of probability, but that everything at a quantum scale is. Since we only experience things at a macroscopic scale, it would be true that it would be impossible for us to encounter truly random events. So my original statement may have been a bit all-encompassing, but yours was, too.
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